more on hell and judgment

My friend wrote again,

A late night thought, you wrote, "I am always leery of interpretations of any scripture that require us to deny the most clear and straightforward reading."

I have two thoughts on this idea of what is "straightforward and clear" is true.

First, when standing on the earth is clear and quite straightforward that the earth is flat. But as we know that given a different perspective, more experience, and more information what seems straightforward and clear actually is not.

Secondly, when we talk about "clear" and "straightforward" I am reminded of Proverbs 25:2: "It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, but the glory of kings is to search out a matter." Does this verse give us license to interpret scripture in wholly untraditional ways? I hope not--that would be quite outrageous (the idea of someone just carelessly interpreting scripture brings a smile to my face).

However, to some people, the revelations I bring to the table are quite careless. So, I guess, we have to accept the idea that what is careless to one man some how makes sense to another.

Let me know what you think.

And I wrote back,

Lemme see here.... First, I don't see carelessness. In fact, its just the opposite. You care too much to just follow tradition without questioning the reality of it. You hunger for truth and understanding. Proverbs teaches and applauds that approach to life. Many people carelessly say they believe things that they have never really thought and prayed about. Careless? You? Nah.

Now on the flat earth thing. I am not sure we can compare our physical view of the earth with interpretation of language. We can use it for an example, I suppose, but it seems to be sort of an apples and oranges comparison. When you speak of the verse from Proverbs, I think its clear that God hides things at times. And sometimes, as in the parables, Jesus even tells us that he was using that type of communication so that not everyone would "get it". I believe His reason is that knowledge equals responsibility. If God gave everyone full revelation of His purposes, it would only add to the condemnation of those whose hearts are set in rebellion. (Think first degree murder versus manslaughter) He gives understanding in small bites. He wants to see how we respond. Its His mercy and kindness. He will feed the hungry heart. He will reward the sincere seeker. There are times when Jesus is obviously speaking in the language of hiddeness. There are other times when he speaks clearly, such as when he privately interpreted parables to his inner circle. There are plenty of examples of both. And sometimes his speech was both. Sometimes there was a clear and plain meaning to His words, but they also had deeper meaning. Clear and straightforward is obviously a matter of interpretation, but I was using it in a very general sense. The passage we were discussing is a good example. You gave an interpretation that had a principle regarding our journey of spiritual growth. I see it and I think its valid. But if you were to take that interpretation and say that it is "the" correct interpretation of that passage, you would have to disregard the places where Jesus described a finality of judgment. Those are what I would consider clear and straightforward.

the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know and will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (yikes)

And while they were going to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut. Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, 'Lord, lord, open to us.' But he answered, 'Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.

For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?' Then he will answer them, saying, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

That seems pretty clear to me. At least the finality of it does. Clear and straightforward doesn't mean that a passage is not open to some interpretation. It means that its there, and has to be acknowledged in the interpretation process. Now... what is that eternal punishment? That's debatable. Each illustration that Jesus gave in both chapters ended with some sort of punishment for the disobedient. That's pretty tough to miss. But yea... clear and straightforward isn't as "clear and straightforward" as we would like sometimes. However, it seems like we have to acknowledge the fact that Jesus describes a bad ending for those who want to do their own thing. To me, that's the "clear and straightforward" part.

Jesus often used symbolic language to teach His ways, but I cant think of any instances where the interpretation ended up being "red is actually blue", or 2+2=7. In other words, when the hidden meaning comes forward, its like, "Oh yea. I totally get that now." I cant think of any time where my reaction was, "What the heck????" If one were to say, "There is no hell or judgment" it requires that we have to say that a lot of scriptures (including the ones we have been discussing) don't mean what what they seem to say. If He had used language that just sounded like there would simply be "increased difficulty in life" when we don't walk in His ways, then you could go with a "lessons on spiritual growth" interpretation to those passages. But, he uses very "final" and sometimes graphic language to describe the consequences.

At the end of the book we read,

Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:6 And he said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

The language of Revelation is obviously symbolic much of the time. Not always, but much of the time. So, this lake of fire stuff may not be literal, but the picture it presents is of a final judgment and separation from God. That is the context of those last two chapters of the book. Everything is finished, and we move on into the eternal purposes of God. You know, Boyd entertains the idea that hell is eternal, but not everlasting. In other words, those who end up there are ultimately destroyed. They don't suffer forever. Its like a piece of wood thrown on the fire. Eventually its burned up. He thinks the original language may indicate that. (Satan and the Problem of Evil) I am actually open to that idea. There are some passages that make that a little hard to swallow, but in my rational mind, I don't see a reason for everlasting suffering when they could simply be destroyed. Again, for me, it comes down to the wise acknowledgment that God is a tad bit smarter than me. And He is good, absolutely good. He will do what it right. And just because I don't understand everything He does, doesn't make Him wrong. Its a big big universe, and I have a little tiny brain.

Again, I think your take on these passages is legitimate. People are not either sheep or goats, wise or foolish. On our journey through life, we are both at different times. But that's the point of the parable, really. We are on a journey, or running a race as Paul put it. It's a marathon, not a sprint and its important how we run. Our lives, our works, will be judged in the end. Wood, hay, and stubble; or gold, silver, and precious jewels. Its our choice. We can walk in humble, loving, trusting obedience to His ways, or we can do our own thing, pursuing this worlds values and pleasures. "Choose this day who you will serve..." Am I going to live like a sheep or a goat? Am I going to live like a wise virgin, or a foolish one? He describes both options, because we can be the one we want. And He warns us that choosing the foolish path will not work out well in the end. Not one bit.

I think, though, the real question here may have more to do with another statement from your original email.

"Jesus tells two parables that confuse my ideas of God's unconditional love."

I am thinking the real question here may be about the meaning of unconditional love. If you define that idea in such a way that doesn't allow for God's judgment, then you have to find a compatible interpretation for the scriptures that describe God as Judge, hell, etc..

For me, the resolution lies in the difference between unconditional love, and unconditional acceptance. God loves every person ever created equally and unconditionally. Hitler, Stalin, Reagan...(ha), all of them were loved by God, unconditionally. He wants nothing but the best for any of us. But His acceptance of us is an entirely different story. Sin had separated us from God, and there was nothing in this world we could do about it. Jesus work of redemption provided a means to satisfy justice and righteousness, making restoration of relationship available. We have to do two things to enter into that redemption, and be restored to our relationship with Him. Repent and believe. We turn from our selfishness, and trust in His forgiveness and grace made available through the cross. When we respond to Him on His terms, He accepts us back into relationship. That is a conditional acceptance. He loves us unconditionally. His heart toward us is the same, "yesterday, today, and forever". We enter back into the enjoyment and experience of that unconditional love when we repent and put our trust in Him (believe). We have to submit ourselves to His authority and meet His conditions before He can accept us into His kingdom.

Gotta go. I look forward to talking more about all this.